Truth or Myth: The Rapture

Truth or Myth: The Rapture

Rapture


Truth of Myth: The Rapture

I Believe In The Rapture-ish, For Now

 

So Harold Camping was wrong <surprise> and we’re all still here hustling and bustling like we were before. No rapture this past weekend. Crap! I guess that means more slumming it here on Earth with our “earnest.”

I was actually surprised at how big a story Harold’s Rapture Error became. I initially decided I wouldn’t engage/acknowledge the whole thing on this site. Admittedly, when it comes to eschatology, the fog of indifference usually descends upon me.

Who cares whether the rapture is before or after the tribulation? Or, what the tribulation will actually entail? I don’t. I’ll continue pursuing a life of love towards God and my neighbors in either scenario. I mean, I know enough about the topic to be a little dangerous, but I haven’t studied long and deep into that category of theology… neither do I want to.

So why write did I change my mind and write this blog about the rapture, then? Because good opportunities to discuss a biblical concept are harder for me to resist. Especially those that challenge me. That, and N.T. Wright got me all riled up!

N.T. Wright, author of several books worth reading including Simply Christian, suggested in a recent posting that the rapture is all rubbish. Those weren’t his words, but he basically cased that the Bible doesn’t support the idea of a rapture. And I’m not merely meaning the word “rapture,” which many point out is nowhere in the Bible, but the concept. The idea that in one minute God’s followers will inhabit the Earth, and in another, they’ll be gone.

I’ve only had serious conversations about The Rapture few with my brother, and my position has always been more when not if. It’s always pre-trib vs. post-trib. To hear someone say there will be no rapture at all shakes up my very uneducated, underdeveloped understanding of the end of days.

After reading Wright’s post, I guess I’m willing to entertain the idea, even it is does feel a little weak. I usually have great respect for Wright’s theology, but not this time. Who knows, maybe he sacrificed brevity for clarity.

For me, the “rapture” verses are Matthew 24:36-41, 2 Thessa. 2:6-8 and 1 Thessa 4:16-17. Let’s look at these passages together. I’ll start the discussion with my view, and you can follow with yours.

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. (Matt. 24:36-41, bold added)

At first glance, this is the perfect picture of the rapture. Two people in the field, one left, one remaining. Two women at the mill, one “taken” the other left. But look a little closer and something goes a little wonky.

The parallel being drawn here is to the days of Noah, where basically, life was going along as normal until the flood began. There, the flood came and “took them all away.”

Hmmm.

It seems the whole passage can be turned by what “take” means. If the statements are truly parallel, then the flood “took” them away from salvation (the ark). In other words, “took” may not be the synonym for rescue like many have assumes. It certainly isn’t in the first part of the passage.

So can it be in the second? Could the man that is “took” be the sinner, not the saint? And if so, where are they being taken too? And more, what does that say about Earth? Hmm… Upon second look, I guess we could score one for Wright (possibly).

“And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, bold added)

This verse may not seem pertinent to the conversation, but I think it is. I’ve always understood the history of the world in three phases.

Phase 1: The Time of God the Father.

Phase 2: The Time of God the Son

Phase 3: The Time of God the Spirit

We are in phase three now, where the Spirit of God is present on Earth through the Church. So when the passage says “only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way,” that capital H makes me think we are talking about one of the Godhead. In this case, it would be the Holy Spirit residing in God’s people. So when it says “taken out of the way” there is room for the belief that this is alluding to a traditional interpretation of “rapture.” A bit of a stretch for some, but I think still worth adding to the conversation.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (2 Thessalonians 4:16-17, bold added)

This is by far the most popular verse supporting the rapture. Admittedly, this one is difficult for me to get around. Below you’ll see what Wright says about this verse in his article, and again, I hate to say I came away unconvinced with his arguments. Wright suggests:

“Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to
Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.”

I’m not buying any of that. The passage clearly says in direct terms (this does not sound like symbolic speech) that the Lord will descend (we know Heaven is “up”), the dead in Christ will rise first, then those alive will be “caught up” in the clouds (not on Earth) to meet Him in the air (in case we forgot where the clouds were).

As I’ve said, I’m interested in the conversation on this one. I’m not exactly sure where I stand. I hope you will share your thoughts!
N.T.Wright’s Article: http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm

*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

Addition to the Post:

Thanks guys for the discussion below! After reading some of the posts, I thought I’d add the following breakdown for further discussion.

 

I first saw these images in LaHaye’s book Revelation Unveiled, but the images are also at http://www.christsbondservants.org/Home_Files/wys-pass%20Chart%20Contrasting%20Events.pdf

*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

Today’s Question:

So do you think there will be a “rapture?”  Why? What do you think of N. T. Wright’s article?

__________________________________________________

About the Author

Antwuan MaloneAntwuan Malone is a freelance writer and blogger about Christian topics that challenge church status quo. He is passionate about the Christian community regaining its voice and authority in society. He believes the first step to achieving this is real, candid conversations among and between believers and non-believers.View all posts by Antwuan Malone →

  • http://ccphilosophy.weebly.com Troy Doucet

    I happen to agree with Wright on this issue- both from his hermeneutic and historical application. The unfortunate thing is that for most laypeople who are uninvolved in academic discourse (which is not necessarily a bad thing) their only understanding of eschatological theology stars Kirk Cameron and a series of hooky fiction. Here is a link with N.T. Wright that is great: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=435168

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Oh stop Troy! You know you love you some Kirk Cameron! :)

  • Jared Abbott

    I have to agree with you that the passage in Thessalonians is pretty clear, and to me it doesn't sound like symbolic language. Saying that, I'm not nearly as educated as N.T. Wright. He probably has more knowledge of the original Greek and how metaphors were expressed in that day and age. Even so, in modern English it sounds like he's speaking directly rather than metaphorically. Especially when you look at Matthew 24:29-31 it just sounds to me like he is echoing the prophecies of the Lord, who also doesn't seem to be speaking metaphorically. Honestly, to me it sounds like Wright is just making an educated guess. Until he or someone else presents me some with stronger support for the symbolic view, I'm sticking to the belief in a literal rapture.

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Yeah, we sound like we're in the same camp. I'm open to what Wright is saying, but what he gives to back it up doesn't feel like enough for me. Thanks for reading and for the comment!

  • http://nathcarter.com/blog Nathan Carter

    In this particular case (not in every situation), I agree with Wright. The rapture is based off this pretty spurious interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4, suggesting that for some reason, God will raise us up into the air to be caught up with him in the clouds. This, to me, sounds like symbolic language, in that Paul ends this particular statement with 'encourage one another with these words'. He gives us something to look forward to, a great time when all sin and pain will be wiped away and nothing will be left but the glory of God. But it makes no sense to me that Paul would be speaking of something so fantastical when he has spent the rest of this particular book speaking in the most sensible and rational of manners. A book by Australian author John Dickson (http://www.publicchristianity.com/_product_15166/666_and_All_That) addresses the end times, and the concept of the rapture merely being a recent theological theory produced by people who have continually misunderstood this particular verse. None of us know the time, the date, the method, any of it, so why would Paul presume to have exact knowledge of our removal from this mortal coil when even Jesus doesn't know when the end is coming? Just my $0.02.

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Thanks. I hear you. It's just that the passage doesn't sound metaphorical to me at all. Add that they saw Jesus (or that they heard from eyewitnesses) ascend "up" and maybe it isn't so "fantastic." In the end, we are talking about a resurrected man, with a physical body, that ascended to the sky, and thus could come back the way he went.

      My point is, maybe it isn't so fantastic given whom we're talking about (Jesus). Thanks for your thoughts!

  • http://twitter.com/lisa_dawn1 @lisa_dawn1

    I'm not nearly as educated as others, but Paul sounds pretty direct and non-symbolic to me as well in 1 Thess 4. In reading Wright's article, I'm unsure why he thinks that this would be metaphoric and " not to be understood as literal truth". Why not understanding it as literal? I'm also unsure why he says that if Christians were to meet Jesus up in the air then they would immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the remade Earth. What's up with that? I'm pretty certain He'll be leading me, and not visa versa. Wright seems to be trying to disprove the Left Behind series, which I have not read, so I may be wrong here, but isn't it fiction?

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Me neither. I could be wrong. I just need more to go on than what he says.

  • Mike G

    With all do respect, there is no way you can differentiate between literal and symbolic imagery when reading any Pauline epistle in English.

    Secondly, unless you have a fairly good grasp of the use of rhetoric in the ancient world, and especially how Paul uses it, you are going to miss Paul's use of evidence for building his arguments, like in Thessalonians.

    Third, It's highly doubtful that Paul is referencing the Matthew 24 passage considering that Thessalonians was written at least 20 years before that part of Matthew (50/51 AD for 2 Thess vs at least 70+ AD for Matthew). There is a slight possibility that Paul was referencing the oral tradition for which Matthew writes, but a textual comparison of all of Paul's writing versus the Matthew text strongly argues against that.

    Finally, the "Left Behind" concept of the rapture is a doctrine that has only arisen within the last 200 years or so, mostly in the United States. This is not something that traces back to the early church, or Christ, or Paul no matter how many amateur theologians try.

    There are a lot of good academic counter arguments to much of N.T. Wright's work but if you're trying to argue for the rapture here, and are trying to use scripture to do it you're not just on thin ice, you're not on ice at all – you're trying to stand on open water. Or rather you're just another Harlod Camping with a different date in mind.

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Maybe not absolutely, but I think we can make a pretty good inference on when he is being literal and when he isn't. Otherwise, there'd be no point to trying to understand anything Paul says… even translated. Though I will agree the margin of error is greater than when readin in the original language.

      And I, in know way, am saying that Paul is echoing what was said by Jesus.But you bring up a good point that what Paul must've heard/understood probably did come form a sort of oral tradition.

      Lastly, I am not trying to argue for either really. In this blog (unlike most of my others) I am sort of opening the conversion with no real point I intend to make. The reality is that I an still open-minded on this issue and am looking for strong biblical basis for the respective viewpoints. I know what I've been taught, but I'm open to a different interpretation if it is strong enough to stand on its own.

      Thanks for the comments! Glad to have you reading.

  • Will

    To second what Mike G said, the 'rapture' phenomenon is uniquely American. Tom Wright does not write that often on it because in most of the circles he runs, he doesn't need to. It is virtually unknown in Britain and the 'Left Behind' books are not the top sellers (they are generally considered 'too American', even by those few who would agree with dispensationalism). There are others who write on this issue much more than Wright. Christianity Today recently posted a much longer article that covers many of the questions raised here. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/june/who

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      I'll have to check out the website. I didn't realize that the Rapture was so "American"… that's an interesting idea. Thanks for your contributions to the conversation!

  • jeana austin

    Ok here goes, there are higher levels of concsiousness, where we experience reality, where all pain is erased. The next dimension is moving towards us as we highten our consciousness through Christ where we can experience what we know as heaven. Miracles are a small insight to what we are to know as reality (this level is a sort of dream state for knowledge and understanding, a preparation ground). Deny the ego, purify your thoughts and get on the escalator! I have seen the world through His eyes, it is beyond imagination. There is a middle ground where we meet Christ and engage with the spirit as one and become the sons and daughters of the Father

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Hmm. so you are talking about some spiritual sort of transcendence that you say happens now. But what say you to that in light of the 1 Corinth. 15:53-55 passage that seems to suggest a physical and spiritual transformation?

    • http://www.ridingacross.tk ridingacross

      Claiming to have seen the world through His eyes is really something there Jeana.

      Going from the Bible i would expect more talk about darkness and sin, and begging everyone to come to Christ that they be forgiven, if you had really seen yourself or the world the way our Lord is said to see it…….

      You are also claiming something that no prophet or friend of God or born again christian has ever claimed. Even Paul who was shown some marvelous things never went so far.

      I put it to you that you are mistaken, deceived you could say, and all of what you may well have seen has been given to you in order to lead you away from the truth the life and way, Jesus Christ……do you practice forms of eastern meditation by any chance?

      Please, if you would know the True God and Saviour, turn from these strange ways and turn to the One who can truly set you free: only through faith in Jesus Christ can any of us become sons and daughters of the Living God, there is no other way, nothing we can do or practice that will make it happen.

      Please ask the Lord Jesus Christ to lead you in His ways and away from all falsehood and deception, and trust Him alone and His name in the midst of the darkness…..He will save you and never leave you.

      May the only God and Saviour truly save you Jeana.
      amen

  • http://searchingforthelightonthepath.blogspot.com/ James

    In one way, I'm kind of glad Harold Camping made a mess of things and brought the whole "rapture" and "end times" issues to the forefront. What would happen to the faith of many Christians if they expected the rapture and it never happened? Christianity is obsessed with the "end times". It's as if the present doesn't exist and that a person is only a Christian relative to what God is going to give us when the world comes to an end. It's as if some people see their coming to faith like buying a bus ticket. Now that they're Christians, they just sit around the bus station waiting for the bus to heaven. Nothing else matters to them except "me and Jesus".

    Despite the usual proof texts, I don't think anything like the rapture is going to occur. The rapture, to the best of my knowledge, is a relatively recent concept in Christianity, dating back to the 17th century. Chances are, the disciples who walked and talked with Jesus didn't expect anything like the rapture.

    I think what ever is going to happen pre, during, and post the coming of Jesus will happen. We will have to deal with it. We will only have our faith and trust (they're not the same thing) in God to help us do it. If I'm wrong and the rapture happens, terrific. I'll be pleasantly surprised. If I'm right and no rapture happens, assuming I'm still alive when Jesus comes, I hope I'll be prepared for whatever happens in the world rather than wondering what went wrong and why I'm not in heaven hanging out with the angels.

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      That's interesting that you hint at believing in the rapture meaning we don't care about here and now. Rob Bell was saying something similar to that (not about rapture, but about heaven) and Wright is saying that in his article.
      But I don't see why that is the conclusion. I believe(d) in the rapture and still cared very much about here and now. It's like Paul said. For me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. The rapture doesn't make now irrelevant in my mind, and I agree that it shouldn't do so in others' minds as well.

      that said, you are ABSOLUTELY correct in saying that many use "salvation" as a ticket out of hell (on the heaven bus, as you describe) which sorely misses the real point of the cross, and frankly, the meta-story of the Bible in its entirety.

      Good comments! Thanks for sharing them.

      • http://www.ridingacross.tk ridingacross

        This is a bit like the Works v Faith debate in some ways.

        James says that if you have faith, you will have works: its the natural out working of a living faith given by God.

        Paul says that we are freed from the Law, but that doesnt mean we are free to use our freedom for sin.

        Some people say that christians just use the idea of heaven, the second coming etc, as an excuse to abuse the world and sit around waiting for their free ride outta here….

        In all these cases, it is true that some people do abuse the gifts and freedoms we have from God…..but those who do so in a persistant unrepentant way may not actually be regenerated christians at all.

        The bible tells us that we are free from the works of the law for our salvation, that we are not actually under Law but Grace, and that we one day will go into the sky to meet the Lord there, and that the whole world, the whole universe, will be remade in its perfect state……and yet for the christian born again by the will of God, good works are completely important, hating sin and loving goodness are vital, and caring about the here and now with all its problems, poverty and unsaved sinners is central to their lives.

        Its these tensions that divide like a two edged sword the goats from the sheep.

        or something like that ;-)

  • http://jasonblanton.blogspot.com Jason Blanton

    "Left Behind?' by James Efird. Buy it. Read it. Best 120 pages on this subject ever. It will answer almost everything you've asked.

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      hmm. Maybe I'll see if they have a kindle version for me to download.

  • http://twitter.com/St_Ray @St_Ray

    I have to third Mike G's comments. The rapture as its known in the modern evangelical church is a 19th century invention. So If the common idea of the modern idea rapture is accepted, then not only does Christ have a Second coming but a Third!

    In the context expressed in Thess. the greek word for "meet" (when the saints "meet" Jesus in the air) is an idea of intercepting someone midway between that person and their destination. Jesus is on his way to finally bringing Justice to earth and we meet him in the sky (preceded by those who are dead of course).

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Biblically, there are two comings, hence the term Rapture, as opposed to Second Coming. I'd always been taught two events (in a pre-trib doctrine). One coming for the saints (and the removal fo the Holy Spirit) in the "Rapture" before tribulation. One after the Tribulation.

      That's the theory anyway.

      • http://www.ridingacross.tk ridingacross

        If i remember correctly, if we keep in mind the fact that the Lord came once when He was born in Bethlehem, then the Futurist position does mean that He comes three times in total.

        That is, once in the nativity, once to meet the saints in the air, and once to bring everybody back again at the end.

        Historically the Lords final coming has always been refered to as the Second Coming, a phrase im sure weve all heard before, so the above sequence would make it the Third Coming.

        Or the Second and a Half Coming, depending on how you count these things.

        Sorry to sound like im making light of this, which im really not because its a serious thing, but some ideas do make it hard to avoid that sometimes.

        Does that sound right Ray, its been a while since i read this stuff?

        • http://twitter.com/St_Ray @St_Ray

          @riding

          yes this is why it doesn't make sense to attribute Christ coming again (2nd) other than "The Day of The Lord".

          I think this is where cults (or of-shoots) like amillennialism, SDA, JW or even Harold Camping justify Christ coming as an" intellectual" or "spiritual" event rather than then the authoritative event consistently described in scripture. He will come back (physically) and divide us. I don't see anything more clearly in eschatology than the "Day" described in the whole of the bible. Whether the season leading up to the event describe good things or bad things will be debated until it happens.

  • http://dysfunctionalparrot.com Dysfunctional Parrot

    After being a pre-tribber for most of my Christian life, I've since abandoned the position a few years ago. At best I've adopted a pre-wrath stance that believes that an "ingathering" will take place. However, to go from that to the "empty clothes" story is a huge stretch.

    But lets assume for a moment the rapture is a legit concept. The notion is that we'll be gathered to heaven. But Christ is coming to earth ( Jerusalem to be specific ). Are we just passing him, or meeting him to arrive there as well? This is also pre-tribs main problem: are there 2 coming or one?

    Always an interesting "in-house" subject!

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      See I was always taught two comings. It was always for me…

      Rapture
      Tribulation
      Second Coming
      Millenium
      Devil let loose again (this is the part that always tripped me up)
      White Throne Judgment.

      I don't stand by that, but I have never seen the Rapture as the second coming. In fact, I'd say there is some people who have composed passages that show these as two separate events. I'll have to find them.

      • Steve Utley

        That view is a popular view – Mainly in the US but as Mike G says above, relatively recent. You have to look at the reasons this view emerged and it basically comes out of dispensational theology which said the church was plan B and the Jews are plan A, therefore, a need arose for God to remove plan B to get plan A back on track. I would recommend two books that are helpful. On charting the theological developments of the view 'Christian Zionism' by Stephen Sizer. The first part of this book maps out the birth of this theology from it's 19th Century roots. The second is 'God's Big Picture' by Vaughan Roberts. This gives an excellent overview of the Biblical narrative and the stages of redemption.

        The view that you have stated has become embedded deep into Western theology, but I do not believe it is Biblical. It largely fragments various Scriptures that speak of the same thing in order to accommodate the dispensationalist view.

        The passage in 2 Thes 4:16ff is quite straight forward if you don't need to insert any gaps. Jesus returns as promised (Matt 28), but this time he is coming as King and Judge and is in triumphal procession in which the redeemed are required to join as 'co-heirs' He raises the saints who are sleeping first to join his procession and then takes the living to join them.

        Throughout Scripture, the notion of 'the day of the Lord' is strong (Joel & 2 Peter). The series of events above has to be derived at best, contrived if I am honest.

        For me one of the strong passages that supports this view is in John 11. Lazarus has died, and Jesus stands by the tomb.

        Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:23-24 ESV)

        This is Mary, Martha and Lazarus who had Jesus teaching in their home, but look at Martha's theology. He'll rise on the LAST day. If this is what is happening in 2 Thes, then what Paul is describing is 'The last day' or 'the day of the Lord'.

        How then can all these other events occur?

        Sorry this is brief and rushed, but I really think that the Rapture is a a red-herring, invented to accommodate dispensational theology which I can not marry up to Scripture unless I ignore large chunks of it.

  • Spackmanjackman

    What are your thoughts on Tim LaHaye's 'Left Behind' novels (and their video game spin-offs)? How do you vIew their contribution to the whole rapture 'conversation'? As an Englishman, I can vouch for the immense popularity and influence of the books amongst Evangelical Christians on these shores, and assume that their influence is even greater in American society.

    As a stereotypically cynical Brit, I hold a rather dim view of the books, and question their value as a trustworthy prophetic source (which is what they have seemed to have become in some quarters). I would, however be interested to find out what my American brothers and sisters think.

    • http://www.ridingacross.tk ridingacross

      Just to butt in here, hope you dont mind, id say that having a dim view of them is just the beginning!

      As cheap christian fiction they are long winded and say less in, what, 20 books or so, than good writers can say in a trilogy. This cynical financial ploy alone is suspect.

      As prophetic source? God forbid.

      • http://twitter.com/spackmanjackman @spackmanjackman

        Perhaps I was being a little polite – in typically British fashion – when I said I held a dim view of the books. I should have been bold enough to say that I completely dismiss their value as a prophetic source and deny anyone who claims that they are engaging pieces of literature. However, there are people that I know, or am acquainted with, who view the 'narrative' as pretty much gospel and proudly display them amongst respected theological works on their book cabinets.

        Which is very scary.

  • http://www.ridingacross.tk ridingacross

    Its well worth looking at the "taken away" passages of Matt 24 in light of Matthew 13, where it is the tares and the bad fish that are taken away and burned.

    Also, if we look at the historical image of a king returning to his city or kingdom, as in Matthew 25 with the virgins and 2Thess4, the pattern is usually that of the king being greeted outside of the city as he approaches and then being accompanied back into the city by his people.

    Considered alongside passsages that tell us of the earth being remade etc, the "rapture" or more correctly "catching away" seems to be a temporary meeting in the air after which we shall return to the earth with the Lord, and then shall we ever be with Him.

    And that will be a good day!

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Hmmm…

    • http://twitter.com/St_Ray @St_Ray

      you've expressed it more fully then me, thank you! 2thess doesnt explain a 'secret rapture' that was invented in 19th century america but the beginnings of the messiah's second coming. where the concept of meeting a king before his destination was easily understood pre-19th century (pre-lacunza, pre-lahaye, pre-lindsey, etc…) I think the common idea of the rapture is a scape-goat into justifying a destructive _material_ and _relational_ way of life…

      • http://www.ridingacross.tk ridingacross

        Yeah, what you say about Lacunza is very true i think, much seems to have started at that time, and a little before with Ribera also.

        Futurist ideas are really deceptive, and are setting up many to be disappointed and perhaps turned away from the faith to some degree…….it happens after every false prophet declares a date for the end, so imagine what could happen if there is nothing that fits in with the "seven years" timeline, not to mention if there is no "secret rapture" to take christians away before the bad stuff starts happening……

        • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

          What say you two to the "thief in the night" passage (sorry I can't give the reference at the moment), in relation to a "secret" rapture. Especially in contrast to the verses that seem to suggest everyone will "see" him coming in the clouds. Two different events?

          • http://twitter.com/St_Ray @St_Ray

            antwuan,

            historically, "thief" and "all will see" is interpreted as the same event. i.e. his coming is a surprise, but when it does happen ALL will see it at once.

            "The Day of the Lord" (2nd coming) is a phrase that is used throughout old and new testament as a day, not a temporary rapture and then "The Day". also many scriptures that people pin on the second coming were actually fulfilled in 69-70 AD with the fall of jerusalem.

          • http://www.ridingacross.tk ridingacross

            Hi Antwuan, how are you doing :-)

            If we mean 1Thess5, then id say that it is the same Day of His coming as the other references Paul makes elsewhere.

            But who does the day overtake as a thief, that is the question?

            In most places where this phrase is used it refers to unbelievers or those who have become distracted.

            In 2Peter3 it is used after talking about the same kind of people….in general it seems to mean that no one is going to know exactly when the Lord is coming back.

            Interestingly, in regard to the Day of the Lord coming like a thief, it is the ones that shall be taken away to whom it will come upon like a thief…..they shall be stolen away unto destruction, not having even been away that the thief was there at all.

            Sobering thoughts.

          • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

            It is further interesting that he speaks that way to the "Church of Sardis" in Rev. 3:3. Interesting since we could assume he is speaking to the elect there.

            I'll have to reference this book that I have at home that puts forth an argument about two separate comings that did make for an interesting read. I'll try to post it here tonight.

          • http://www.ridingacross.tk ridingacross

            Do note though that the use of the thief image is once again closely linked to those who "have a name that they are alive, but are dead", which surely cant refer to the born again christian there?

            Also, the letter is to the churches angel, perhaps to the church as a whole unit, within which there are clearly true and false converts, as there are in every visible church.

            The false converts will have the Day come upon them like a thief, like the others in other passages using this image…..

            yeah, will be interesting to see that article. hope to be able to reply soon
            thanks man,
            james

  • http://twitter.com/johnpinkstonii @johnpinkstonii

    I agree with some of the others here. That passage out of 1 Thess and its interpretation as a literal event only makes sense if you presuppose current theories about the rapture. If you take that out of the equation, then it doesn't make any sense. Then the later verses stressing encouragement become more important, or at least I believe they are more important.

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      I wonder if you'd elaborate a little more. In what ways do you mean "encouragement become more important"? Encouragement towards what?

  • http://www.ridingacross.tk ridingacross

    Im not sure i follow what you say here John…..

    The 1Thess4 verses dont necessitate the current secret, pre/mid/post rapture ideas being true, and they can just as easily be understood from other positions like the one roughly outlined above.

    Can i ask what you define as "current theories about the rapture"?

  • John Harris

    Write's mini-article is pretty much spot on, though some of the interpretation of "in the air" I take differently, but not like most of us think "way up in the sky" it's the word for our very breath, the air around us. I think it speaks more to a state or reality, not an "up up and away" idea…

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      I added the a few graphs that some say make clear that there are two events. Check it out and tell me what you think.

  • http://Twitter.com/mchodson Matt

    Tullian Tchividjian wrote a great blog about this. Check it out at http://www.thegospelcoalition.com/blogs/tullian

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      That link is broken… check it out again and try reposting it.

  • http://twitter.com/brenize2000 @brenize2000

    I have read several books on both sides of this debate and I will have to say that neither side has convinced me to the point that I would take a stand either way. I agree with your opening statements. I think the most important thing to know is that Jesus IS coming back and we better be ready. We need to be living a life that is a light in this dark world. We need to be pouring into our friends, family and neighbors and showing them the love of Jesus.

    Deep down, I would like to believe there is a post-trib rapture. Sounds like a wonderful way to go to me! But whether or not it is going to happen, does not change how I am going to live my life here on earth, my belief/faith in Christ or the anticipation I have to spend eternity with my Lord and Savior.

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Yeah… I think we have a lot in common on this subject.

  • MarkbbAguirre

    Yes, this topic fascinates me, however I think it does change the way believers live. If you believer in Pre-trib rap then let us hope for Christ to take us away before persecution. In a sense, believers become comfortable and relaxed, especially in America. This is the key point I want to make: Those who belive in a Pre-tribe rap will place their hope in this instead of RESSURECTION! Look at Thesslonians 4 (I think you put 2 Thess. on accident) it says those who are dead (the fallen saints) will be raised before those who are alive (the mystery of the ones who are changed from mortal to immortality wiout dying).

    • http://twitter.com/antwuanmalone @antwuanmalone

      Hmm, i always sort of equated Resurrection with the "rapture"…

  • Varghese2go

    I like this post. Unlike you, I am very interested in end times, but not to the extent that I feel myself a prophet. I do believe in a rapture. I guess that is all you really wanted to discuss, but the whole mid, per, post thing is funny to me. After all, when Christ came no one, except for the few surrounding Him at birth saw it coming or acknowledged it when it happened. I think the second coming will happen in like fashion. We’re clueless.

    There are reasons I believe in the rapture, but the main one surrounds the H.S. I can just imagine (conjecture) Satan pleading with God to take the HS out so that he can have full control, in much the same way he whined to Him, as recorded in the book of Job. Along with that, the H.S. power is WAY underestimated in the world, and by Him leaving, it allows the world to come to their complete depravity, as we see in the land of Canaan before Moses was allowed to allow his people to go in (?-yep). Ultimately, it’s not about us. The rapture is not for us, but His glory.

    • http://antwuanmalone.com/ Antwuan Malone

      That’s an interesting thought… Satan pleading for God to remove the Holy Spirit.  I hadn’t thought of that.